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Author Topic: Recap improvements needed in the Wiki site - Where?  (Read 283869 times)
Neon_Knight
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« Reply #225 on: January 10, 2014, 04:34:48 AM »

1) Now you set a green background for maps which have no compatibilty issues. It's very useful, but maybe adding a column where to show an image may have been a bit simpler for newcomers which would like to edit the page? I don't know. It's just a question.
I don't want to clutter the list. Besides, it was a recommendation of Tig, the admin of LvL, I never thought about that.

2) Maybe we should add a note to explain in which cases we can consider a map with no compatibility issues (e.g. missing .arena file should be mentioned in "other notes" column, but does not affect map compatibility), hence ok for be marked "green".
Well, add it.

3) There are various cases of notes such as "Uses some textures already included in OpenArena. May cause conflict.", hence:
3.1) Maybe we should add some notes to explain how to do this test?
Not a bad idea, I guess.

3.2) Maybe it would be better to start with "Contains ..." word, instead of "Uses ..."? "Uses some textures already in OpenArena" may seem a normal thing. "Contains", instead, may suggest more the possible conflict...
3.3) If the conflict is caused by those textures (or files in general, such as the bfg hum sound in via_arena and q3_via_arena maps), the two sentences may be merged into one "... included in OpenArena: may cause conflict." To be clear it's referring to the same thing, and not two different things.
Already done.

3.4) Maybe that "may cause conflict" is too general? Maybe something like "..., hence may override those from OA" or "..., hence those from this map may be shown also in other maps, in the place of those from stock OA".
"May cause override" sounds more appropiate and straight to the point. There's no need for more text.

3.5) If this situation is so common, maybe we may even add a specific column for them... hence, just explaining the thing in a "legend" at the top of the page, and then simply specifying a character for each map (e.g. "T" for textures, "S" for sounds, "B" for both...).
Like I said above, I don't want to clutter the list.

4) What about a try enabling the borders between fields of the table?
I haven't remembered how to do that.

PS: Did you read my previous post, just above this one?
Later.

Already done.

PPPS: It would be nice to also review OSP maps (such as OSPCA1, pupular Clan Arena -Elimination- map back to those days).
For me these count as simple FFA/CTF maps so I have no problem with them.
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« Reply #226 on: January 10, 2014, 05:04:10 AM »

1) Now you set a green background for maps which have no compatibilty issues. It's very useful, but maybe adding a column where to show an image may have been a bit simpler for newcomers which would like to edit the page? I don't know. It's just a question.
I don't want to clutter the list. Besides, it was a recommendation of Tig, the admin of LvL, I never thought about that.
Okay, then let's keep the green.  Wink

Quote
2) Maybe we should add a note to explain in which cases we can consider a map with no compatibility issues (e.g. missing .arena file should be mentioned in "other notes" column, but does not affect map compatibility), hence ok for be marked "green".
Well, add it.
Considering you set which maps are "green" up to now, what are your criteria?

Quote
3) There are various cases of notes such as "Uses some textures already included in OpenArena. May cause conflict.", hence:
3.1) Maybe we should add some notes to explain how to do this test?
Not a bad idea, I guess.
Could you please do that? You know, I fear I would end up using too many words! Otherwise, I will try myself...

Quote
3.2) Maybe it would be better to start with "Contains ..." word, instead of "Uses ..."? "Uses some textures already in OpenArena" may seem a normal thing. "Contains", instead, may suggest more the possible conflict...
3.3) If the conflict is caused by those textures (or files in general, such as the bfg hum sound in via_arena and q3_via_arena maps), the two sentences may be merged into one "... included in OpenArena: may cause conflict." To be clear it's referring to the same thing, and not two different things.
Already done.
Uh? Are you sure? Now I read "Contains some assets already included in OpenArena. May cause override.", with a "dot" in the middle (still two different sentences).  Undecided

Quote
3.4) Maybe that "may cause conflict" is too general? Maybe something like "..., hence may override those from OA" or "..., hence those from this map may be shown also in other maps, in the place of those from stock OA".
"May cause override" sounds more appropiate and straight to the point. There's no need for more text.
Good.

Quote
3.5) If this situation is so common, maybe we may even add a specific column for them... hence, just explaining the thing in a "legend" at the top of the page, and then simply specifying a character for each map (e.g. "T" for textures, "S" for sounds, "B" for both...).
Like I said above, I don't want to clutter the list.
Then, you did the right thing now using the general "Assets" word.  Smiley

Quote
4) What about a try enabling the borders between fields of the table?
I haven't remembered how to do that.
Uhm... I somehow managed to make it appear DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Map_compatibility&diff=15576&oldid=15573]this way, although I'm not sure about how to set its color, and if there is some better way to do it...
Quote
PS: Did you read my previous post, just above this one?
Later.
Waiting for reply...  Smiley

Quote
Thank you!  Wink
Quote
PPPS: It would be nice to also review OSP maps (such as OSPCA1, pupular Clan Arena -Elimination- map back to those days).
For me these count as simple FFA/CTF maps so I have no problem with them.
I meant "I have not much time for that... if you wish to do it when you will have some time, that would be appreciated..."   Grin Grin Grin

UPDATE: I applied some changes to the "legend" of that page. Take a look.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:43:15 AM by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #227 on: January 10, 2014, 06:57:08 AM »

Done. Also cleared up a bit the part before the maplist itself.

With these tests I came to some conclusions:
- Most of the missing textures belong to the mapobjects. Texturing them may make a lot of maps compatible.
- Most of the maps with the overriding assets use Evillair's textures, specifically the evil6_* and evil8_* packs. For future OA versions, these packs may be renamed in the official package to oa_evil6 and oa_evil8, so not to mess with the current maps which uses those assets.
- There was at least one instance of arenas.txt and one of common.shader (!). You can see where this leads...
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« Reply #228 on: January 10, 2014, 07:14:05 AM »

- Most of the maps with the overriding assets use Evillair's textures, specifically the evil6_* and evil8_* packs. For future OA versions, these packs may be renamed in the official package to oa_evil6 and oa_evil8, so not to mess with the current maps which uses those assets.
- Uhm... doing that would break compatibilty with existing third-party OA maps designed for 0.8.x: then, those maps would require to get those textures elsewere (an oa-oa compatibility pack?), or we would need to keep both copies of them, causing pk3 files to be somehow bigger. I'm not sure about the best option.
Probably, such "commonly used" texture folder names should have never been used directly in OA... but now it's late... PS: I also discouraged usage of such names also for OACMP, but at the moment, I fear something is still there.

UPDATE: However, do you think files with the same name in the evil_* folders from OA and from third-party maps look exactly the same, or something differs? In the first case, even an override would change nothing for the final user...

Quote
- There was at least one instance of arenas.txt and one of common.shader (!). You can see where this leads...
Maybe we should use "bold" in the lines mentiong such problems. They are major compatibilty issues.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 07:17:27 AM by Gig » Logged

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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #229 on: January 10, 2014, 07:25:58 AM »

There were some modifications done to evillair shaders on the official OA packages. This is something I've noticed with the 0.8.5 version of am_underworks2, I suppose some corrections were made for 0.8.8 as the problem hasn't arised since then. IMHO these textures and shaders should have been included as they were.

Something else I've also noticed, BTW: I have been reviewing very recent Q3 maps. Aside of the poor performance on lower-end machines (I've been doing tests with my netbook, some maps hit 6 FPS at best, this is something we should avoid for OA3), I've noticed that the author of those maps placed the textures he used in a separate folder, so not to clash with the original packages. He used evillair textures but renamed them and included them in it's own folder (named after the map) instead. That's a very interesting practice I wasn't aware of.
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« Reply #230 on: January 10, 2014, 09:18:56 AM »

Oh, and a last conclusion: by taking a look at these maps, I'm really glad that we're getting aside of the overrated serious/grim/dark/brown/satanic thematic Q3 did. Man, those maps are really boring, visually speaking. OA maps are pretty colorful in comparison.
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« Reply #231 on: January 10, 2014, 09:42:34 AM »

I've noticed that the author of those maps placed the textures he used in a separate folder, so not to clash with the original packages. He used evillair textures but renamed them and included them in it's own folder (named after the map) instead. That's a very interesting practice I wasn't aware of.
We should use similar techniques each time we will include new (imported?) textures in baseoa for new baseoa maps. If possible, we should do something similar also in OACMP packs.
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« Reply #232 on: January 11, 2014, 10:39:39 AM »

I've noticed that we can also improve map compatibility by creating replacement sounds, which are way fewer than the textures/shaders to be replaced. There are many maps which have no missing textures/shaders but have missing sounds, and as a result, the hit sound (the new default sound for missing sounds) is played, confusing the players themselves when it comes to playing these maps.
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« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2014, 06:21:20 AM »

Are you sure? When I added water sounds to udestruction map, I noticed that a missing sound caused the hit beep sound to be played, in q3a... but in oa it simply caused to hear nothing.
Things to notice: I may have done something wrong at that time, and in my case the sound was used for an infinite loop.

Could you please do some more testing?
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« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2014, 07:36:15 AM »

Yes, I've been hearing it in every map I've tested for Map Compatibility. And there are many (yesterday I've finished the letter K)
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« Reply #235 on: January 13, 2014, 03:12:13 AM »

Yes, I've been hearing it in every map I've tested for Map Compatibility. And there are many (yesterday I've finished the letter K)
D'oh! Then, I'm going to remove that "Missing sounds are usually not a major problem." phrase from the legend. I wrote that because I thought that in OA, unlike Q3A, the default sound was a silence instead of a beep...

Considering that now the "map compatibility legend" is shared between more pages, I'm going to move it to a template.

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« Reply #236 on: January 13, 2014, 07:13:00 AM »

Okay, "legend" is in a template now.

By the way, could you please check the note I added DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/index.php?title=Template%3AMapCompat_legend&diff=15740&oldid=15725]here? I hope it's the criterion you have been using while reviewing the maps. However, maybe you may wish to fix that note with better words, or you may wish to move it to the notes in the main MapCompat page? I don't know.

PS: I also replied DO NOT LINK[/b]) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Talk:Map_compatibility]here.
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Neon_Knight
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« Reply #237 on: January 20, 2014, 03:28:08 PM »

Today was a very good day. A good chunk of the mapping manual (25%) has been completed. Here are the (almost) completed pages:

- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Pre-mapping_stage
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Triggers_and_movers
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Optimization_and_troubleshooting
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Hint_brushes
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Bot_play
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Appendix_A:_Glossary_of_terms
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« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2014, 08:26:23 AM »

Oh, yeah, another update on the mapping manual.

The following pages have been created since the last update:

- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Prologue (needs a bit of history on mapping programs)
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Lighting
-- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Advanced_lighting
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Mapmodels
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Additional_gametype_support
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/The_final_touches (needs more info)
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Compiling_and_packaging
- (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Appendix_E2:_Model_sets
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« Reply #239 on: January 27, 2014, 03:39:29 AM »

Is it possible that in (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features#Death_pits
you erroneously wrote "Create a brush covering half of the bottom of the pit" instead of "Create a brush covering the bottom half of the pit"? And by the way, I suppose that guide section should better explain how the various triggers should be "stacked" inside the pit. I can guess the first one the player should encounter while falling should be the one which triggers the scream, then the one that kills you, and finally the "nodrop" one. Uhm... probably we should also mention how to modify the trigger in case we want the corpse to immediately explode (adivisable in space maps) or to lie on the bottom (advisable in fog of death).

In general, usage of some images in the mapping tutorial may be useful (e.g. screenshots or schemas about how to place triggers to achieve certain effects, etc.)...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 03:41:55 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2014, 06:10:23 AM »

Is it possible that in (DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Mapping_manual/Creating_dynamic_features#Death_pits
you erroneously wrote "Create a brush covering half of the bottom of the pit" instead of "Create a brush covering the bottom half of the pit"? And by the way, I suppose that guide section should better explain how the various triggers should be "stacked" inside the pit. I can guess the first one the player should encounter while falling should be the one which triggers the scream, then the one that kills you, and finally the "nodrop" one. Uhm... probably we should also mention how to modify the trigger in case we want the corpse to immediately explode (adivisable in space maps) or to lie on the bottom (advisable in fog of death).
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/RepairDontRespond

=)

About the screenshots, yeah, all the mapping manual articles require them, but for now I want to finish the text part, the screenshots may come later.
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« Reply #241 on: January 27, 2014, 08:21:07 AM »

I know the "be bold" of wiki spite, but I was not sure I interpreted that sentence the correct way. Now I modified that phrase, but that sentence is not the only thing I think should be clearer in that section (see post above)... I cannot fix what I do not understand (you have probably done death pits hundreds of times... I did only once). Please give a look to it when you will have some time. Thank you.

PS: Is it more correct "bottom half" or "lower half"?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 08:54:21 AM by Gig » Logged

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« Reply #242 on: January 27, 2014, 09:23:27 AM »

Whatever. It's a pit, not a passage.
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« Reply #243 on: January 28, 2014, 08:18:34 AM »

While searching for material for the Mapping Manual, I've stumbled upon these documents. They are related to models and bots, so this should be useful for other areas of the wiki.

http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Model_Manual/model_manual.htm
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/New_Teams_For_Q3TA/
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/bot_manual/
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Compile_Manual/modelskins.txt
http://icculus.org/gtkradiant/documentation/Compile_Manual/headskins.txt
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« Reply #244 on: January 30, 2014, 01:20:43 PM »

I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?
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« Reply #245 on: January 30, 2014, 03:12:08 PM »

I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.
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« Reply #246 on: January 31, 2014, 05:01:35 AM »

I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?
Chat feature is listed in the "Wikia Labs" section (meaning something like "beta"), and is reported as active in 38.979 wikis (how many wiki sites does Wika host??? Wikia home page mentions 405.436 "total communities"...). The option is inactive: if Fromhell wants to activate it, it's in Special:WikiFeatures page. However, I don't know if that is really needed. For generic chat, there are already various IRC channels, although I'm not used using them. For talking about the wiki itself, you haven't yet replied to some questions I left in your talk page weeks ago, would you use the chat to discuss about wiki changes?

I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.

Maybe "Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice"? A sub-page of the manual page about a specific topic, similarily to an appendix.
Or "Mapping tutorial/Brush manipulation", or "Mapping exercises/Brush manipulation"? An apposite section of the wiki...
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« Reply #247 on: January 31, 2014, 05:50:51 AM »

I have noticed that several wikis in Wikia have a direct chat widget. Is it possible (and desireable) to enable such feature in OAWiki?
Chat feature is listed in the "Wikia Labs" section (meaning something like "beta"), and is reported as active in 38.979 wikis (how many wiki sites does Wika host??? Wikia home page mentions 405.436 "total communities"...). The option is inactive: if Fromhell wants to activate it, it's in Special:WikiFeatures page. However, I don't know if that is really needed. For generic chat, there are already various IRC channels, although I'm not used using them. For talking about the wiki itself, you haven't yet replied to some questions I left in your talk page weeks ago, would you use the chat to discuss about wiki changes?
Chat is a more direct way of talking than just messages.

I was thinking that we can also add a "Practice" section (i.e. "Mapping manual/Practice/Brush manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Curve manipulation", "Mapping manual/Practice/Triggers and movers", etc.) once the Mapping manual is finished, with a map being built from scratch until all the concepts learnt from it are covered. But theory should come first.

Maybe "Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice"? A sub-page of the manual page about a specific topic, similarily to an appendix.
Or "Mapping tutorial/Brush manipulation", or "Mapping exercises/Brush manipulation"? An apposite section of the wiki...
Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice may be good and well, as long as it can be chained. But first I want to finish the Mapping manual itself.
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« Reply #248 on: January 31, 2014, 06:52:28 AM »

Chat is a more direct way of talking than just messages.
Let's wait for Fromhell's opinion.  Smiley Partly because "I don't know what's better", and mostly because I don't want to enable new features without Fromhell's approval.

Quote
Mapping manual/Brush manipulation/Practice may be good and well, as long as it can be chained. But first I want to finish the Mapping manual itself.
Decision between "Mapping manual/Topic/Practice" or "Mapping manual/Practice/Topic" may depend from the way you think you will write those pages, if more as a "now, let's try to appy what you just read" or more as a complete "step by step" tutorial where you should follow exercises in a certain order...
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« Reply #249 on: January 31, 2014, 06:57:20 AM »

I was thinking more on the second option, a step-by-step tutorial.
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"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
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