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Author Topic: Edgy OA Content  (Read 103355 times)
HanClinto
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« on: August 13, 2007, 08:01:22 AM »

Hey all!

First off, congrats on a successful 0.7 (and 0.7.1) launch! It really looks like you're turning OA into an even better game than it already was, and that's quite impressive. Smiley

I had some questions about the content in the latest version.

Don't expect nudity in OA though, because not even the male models have nipples! Plus it'd hurt the publicity we've been getting from commercial sites like FilePlanet. heh.

What happened between then and now? (specifically referring to this and this and this) I understand the nearly-topless anime chick was an April fools joke, but as I was preparing to send a horde of early-teen kids to download the latest OA release for our upcoming LAN party, I was a little surprised to see how things had seemingly so drastically changed.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that the build process separates these models out into pak2-players-mature.pk3 -- I think that's fantastic. Smiley But I think I'm just most surprised that these seem to be included (and enabled) by default. It's also disappointing that images from them dominate much of the current image gallery. I suggest that it would be wiser to make such content available as a downloadable or enable-able extra rather than include it in the default base package.

This is not an issue of cg_forcemodels=1 so much as it's an issue of distributing this content to youth groups, when parents are already leery of video games and concerned with the content that their kids are playing. Me telling them to download the game for the next party and seeing the image gallery plastered with topless women does not go over well.

This is just one opinion, take it for what it's worth. I've been a big fan of OA since I first tried it out, and I'm really quite amazed and impressed to see how much excellent work has been done in the past year -- you guys are amazing, and I am one of the many who really appreciate your hard work.

I would love to see this game continue to grow in seeing even wider popularity. If you are trying to get more people playing OA, having such content included in the game by default will prevent people like me from continuing to recommend the game to others. I'm not offended in any way -- I really appreciate all of the help that you all have been in the past. I'm just letting you know that you've lost a big part of what originally attracted users such as myself to the game.

I'm very open to suggestions.

Thanks again!

Respectfully,
clint
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fromhell
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2007, 10:35:37 AM »

the readme states you can delete the players-mature.pk3 file and that's why it's separated into that. Also isn't it kind of redundant bandwidth killing to have them all out to go get that big 250mb file? You could probably pass around a version without this pk3. It wasn't supposed to be surprising as we did already warn about such character being created months before it happened.

They don't really dominate the gallery. You'd have turn to page 4 or 5 to see most of them. Tony and Beret were rushed under the release date (the meshes are fine though, skins could use polish)

Be grateful I don't bundle the 'uncut' pack by default, nor is that really available right now Tongue

also another note, ayumi/neko isn't in the mature pk3, as i'm unsure on what a fur covered person would be in
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 10:49:19 AM by leilol » Logged

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rudcrustage
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 10:53:32 AM »

yeah i didnt get the titty ball thing either... is it for ratings? bad publicity is good publicity? Tongue
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fromhell
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 11:00:24 AM »

it has nothing to do with publicity honestly (we have plenty of that before the girl already), it's because q3a has a similar character to 'match' on

when it comes to publicity in games, people are more interested in seeing a bloom/water filled screenshot (defining 'next gen') rather than a pair of mammaries.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 11:04:28 AM by leilol » Logged

asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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I do not provide technical support either.

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HanClinto
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 11:24:26 AM »

Hey fromhell -- thanks for the reply!


the readme states you can delete the players-mature.pk3 file and that's why it's separated into that.
I think that's a great step in the right direction -- I just don't think that it's a good idea to have it on by default. It seems to me that people who try to avoid such visuals appreciate it when they are respectfully turned off ahead of time, and people who want to have inflated bouncing breasts are quite happy to jump through a hoop or two in order to get them (maybe it would even let them appreciate it more when they got it). If it's already partitioned out this far (with the separate pk3), it seems to make more sense (from my admittedly biased standpoint) to put it in the readme.txt as far as what to do in order to turn it on.


Also isn't it kind of redundant bandwidth killing to have them all out to go get that big 250mb file? You could probably pass around a version without this pk3.
Sorry, my first post was misleading. Yes, I normally create a custom ISO of everything for distribution at the LAN party, but it's tradition for us to send out the names of the games that we're going to be playing with the invite so that people can check them out and warm up on them if they so choose. As it stands at the moment, I'm a wee bit leery of promoting the OA url in the invites.


It wasn't supposed to be surprising as we did already warn about such character being created months before it happened.
I do indeed remember some of the warnings that you gave -- I admit that I didn't think that the aforementioned "busty women" would go quite as far as topless women (though I'm sure I missed some of the more specific foreshadowings that you made).


They don't really dominate the gallery. You'd have turn to page 4 or 5 to see most of them.
You're right -- the new models primarily flood pages 4 and 5. Pages 1 and 2 each have a screenshot of topless/string-covering-nipples near the top, with this image showing up for me as the first screenshot seen when entering the gallery section.


Be grateful I don't bundle the 'uncut' pack by default, nor is that really available right now Tongue
heh. Smiley


also another note, ayumi/neko isn't in the mature pk3, as i'm unsure on what a fur covered person would be in
Interesting question. Yeah, furries are a bit odd duck. Thanks for the heads up -- I'll keep that in mind if I make my own distro of OA for a party, so that I can take it out of the normal pk3.


Anyways, I feel bad for being such a prude -- that really isn't my intention. This is your show, your game, and I'm thankful to you all for providing it -- you've done an excellent job. Smiley I'm just trying to give you feedback, and let you know why I haven't promoted OA since the 0.7 release.

Thankyou for your time.

Cheers!

--clint
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 11:31:52 AM by HanClinto » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 03:51:05 PM »

You, of course, are aware that the ESRB gave Quake 3: Arena an M rating (17+) for its re-release in Ultimate Quake and that the point of the game is to run around and blow people up, which isn't really family friendly (unless maybe you are the Manson family, but that's a different topic Tongue ).  That being said, I don't think anyone is going to be corrupted by seeing half naked women run around blowing people up and accusing people that blow them up of misogyny.

Also, while I can't speak for lei, I am less willing to do anything to fix this non-problem when the only people complaining about it are male.
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rudcrustage
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 04:39:01 PM »

yeah but what if ESRB steps in ya knows? cuz kids need parents permission to buy, but not for this, any one can download this game...   if anything, i kinda liked how it was like a kids q3a before : P
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2007, 06:13:45 PM »

Do you hide National Geographic from kids because they show photographs of topless women from cultures that respect the female form and have no puritanical hang ups of women being topless?
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tonnyx
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 06:54:13 PM »

Also, while I can't speak for lei, I am less willing to do anything to fix this non-problem when the only people complaining about it are male.

Well, I suppose I'll go ahead and complain, then.  Smiley  (I'm female)

I like LAN parties.  I like running around and shooting stuff.  I was really happy with OpenArena when I first found it a while ago, when the only female model was that creepy Asian chick.  I liked that she was completely clothed, yet very creepy.

So, when I was thinking about what games to bring to the next LAN party the other day, I was incredibly put off by all the nude models.  Hair != clothing (hair is not equal to clothing).  I will not download this and promote it.  The scene in my mind goes like this: "Hey (insert name of friend), there's a really cool game - it's multiplayer, there are some good maps, and it's a lot of fun to play.  Oh, and, um, delete that players-mature.pk3 file.  Don't look at it."  So let's say that my friend doesn't delete it.  His/her parents see him/her playing the game with those unsightly models running around.  "Whoa, son/daughter.  Where'd you get that game?"  "Uh, Mrs. ------ sent me the link."  Yeah.  Let's see me squirm out of that one.

Let's see, on the other hand, the situation I would prefer: "Hey (insert name of friend), there's a really cool game - it's multiplayer, there are some good maps, and it's a lot of fun to play.  Here's the download link."  I would likely, at this point, warn him/her that there are some unsightly models in some of the other packages that I don't recommend.  So, someone who decides to go against my advice would have to actively go against it, rather than passively forgetting to do something I asked them to do.  So, let's say in scenario #2, that the parents come in and see the unsightly models.  "Whoa, son/daughter.  Where'd you get that game?"  "Uh, Mrs. ------ sent me the link."  So, they come beating their way to my door with the torches and sickles, and they say, "What are you doing giving my kids these immoral games?"  And I can honestly say, "Well, Mr. and Mrs. -----, if that's what you saw in the game, then your child went and downloaded that himself.  I had nothing to do with it."

I think I saw somewhere that the proposed solution is to package it up myself and distribute that.  While that's perhaps a short-term fix, I'm not going to bother.  I respected OpenArena quite a bit when I first found it, because, not only was it open source, and looked like it was well on the way for developing good gameplay, maps, etc., it also was something I could heartily recommend to any family who wanted to get together for a fun little LAN party, with no qualms, no alteration.  Just, "hey, download this," and away we go.  If OpenArena is no different than any other FPS, then I might as well go and play the more polished, professionally developed Unreal, etc.  So, at this point, I'm not going to promote OpenArena, as it stands now, among friends, for the aforementioned reasons.

I won't go into as much depth as far as distortion of women (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U).  Don't get me started on the insidious effects of changing men's expectations of women.

Thanks!
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supermatic
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 08:33:38 PM »

Well, I suppose I'll go ahead and complain, then.  Smiley  (I'm female)

I'm for titties, it's nothing wrong.
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 08:54:45 PM »

Well, I suppose I'll go ahead and complain, then.  Smiley  (I'm female)

Then you have a right to complain about representations of the feminine body in the game. 

Quote
I think I saw somewhere that the proposed solution is to package it up myself and distribute that.  While that's perhaps a short-term fix, I'm not going to bother.  I respected OpenArena quite a bit when I first found it, because, not only was it open source, and looked like it was well on the way for developing good gameplay, maps, etc., it also was something I could heartily recommend to any family who wanted to get together for a fun little LAN party, with no qualms, no alteration.  Just, "hey, download this," and away we go.  If OpenArena is no different than any other FPS, then I might as well go and play the more polished, professionally developed Unreal, etc.  So, at this point, I'm not going to promote OpenArena, as it stands now, among friends, for the aforementioned reasons.

What is family friendly about running around and blowing people up?  Also you are aware that Unreal has a far less family friendly aspect to it, or have you never bothered with the "sexy" announcer? 

Anyway, there is a content system in the works that will (hopefully) make this entire argument a non-issue and it doesn't involve deleting content.  However there is no guarantee that some kid won't just check the box in the menu and have his/her parents blow up and torch your house in puritanical fury.  Yet there is nothing stopping children from doing that in Unreal Tournament, either.

Quote
I won't go into as much depth as far as distortion of women (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U).  Don't get me started on the insidious effects of changing men's expectations of women.

Can't be any worse than convincing people of the need for full equality across the spectrum (GLBT equality, Gender equality, Racial equality, Class equality, etc.) Wink
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baconfish
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2007, 10:05:06 PM »

I have to agree with HanClinto and tonnyx. I'd also add that it simply seems tasteless, and for me it's really takes away from the game. I understand you wanted to parody the Q3A character (which I don't think was this ridiculous) but I think you could've chosen something different.

It doesn't really offend me so much as it makes me roll my eyes and want to give up on hoping to see some style here.
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2007, 02:27:31 AM »

So why not post a list of everything that you don't like and offer suggestions on how to improve them?
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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2007, 11:45:07 AM »

Don't forget the bot chat language too.   

This reminds me of a thought to replace all the blood with water and impacts with foam darts.

also don't confuse 'scantily clad' with 'topless', shes not naked  Sad this kind of 'nudity' is actually acceptable in like a T rated game (see DarkStalkers). They have as much bits as Barbie(r) dolls. As for the animation she's a bit bouncy but not as exaggerated as anything in Dead or Alive.       Not really made for 'exploitation of women' in mind actually. I'm female and I like the character myself and do prefer using it (angelyss/dark in particular)

Maybe I should put a warning on the site or something, but not enforce it
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 11:55:13 AM by leilol » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 12:55:35 PM »

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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 01:04:36 PM »

maybe sticking these around should be enough for now
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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HanClinto
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 01:25:46 PM »

Hey all -- thanks for the responses.

I don't want to raise a huge row over this issue -- this isn't my show, I'm just a fan and promoter of the game. One of the primary reasons that I promoted OA was because it was considerably better than Unreal Tournament in the area of sexuality.

also don't confuse 'scantily clad' with 'topless', shes not naked  Sad
I don't know about Tonnyx or others, but when I was talking about characters being "topless", I was referring to the spider woman. I would tend to agree with Tonnyx, that "hair != clothes" -- and so in that regard, I contend that the spider lady is topless.

The two-pieces-of-string-for-a-shirt is another matter, as a fairly minimalistic sort of dominatrix outfit.

I initially was promoting OA because I was really happy with how good of a game it was, and how it didn't need to reduce itself to a booth-babed E3 to sell itself.

They have as much bits as Barbie(r) dolls.
A sexual model need not have camel toe in order to be effective. This is why so much of pornography is not full nudity -- the veiled allure is generally more provocative than the exposed reality.


Maybe I should put a warning on the site or something, but not enforce it

I suppose I'm just wondering what the design guidelines for the project are. fromhell, you said:
There's also some sort of triple-breast angel in the texture packs as well but it's rarely seen in any UT map.

We don't plan on going that far with OA Tongue
I agree -- a topless spider chick is not quite the same thing as a triple-breasted angel. But it seems fairly similar -- how close to the line are you hoping to go?

You've said that there isn't going to be any nudity in OA. Whether or not it is *technically* nudity is always up for nauseatingly-pedantic debate. "Nudity" is not the issue, as dmn_clown's signature rhetoric so deftly alludes. Of course Mikey's David is not pornography! Still, could someone use it as such? They certainly could. Conversely, could someone use a nude pinup as something other than pornography? They certainly could -- it could be used as anatomy reference for biology or some such thing.

I think a lot of this comes back to the question of intent --  "Why is such content included in the game?"

If I were to say "there will be no nudity in this game" -- I would mean that the game is not going to have any images that blatantly try to sexually arouse through immodest use of the human form.

However, it sounds like the standard that OA is following up until this point says "there will be no nudity in this game" to mean "this game will technically be able to be PG-13 with regards to sexuality". At least, that's the only way that I can gel past OA guidelines I've read with the new 0.7 content.

If that is what you mean, then that's not saying much at all. PG-13 movies stereotypically push the line as far as they can go without technically crossing it. They're the annoying little brother who holds their finger as close to you as possible without actually making contact saying "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" This says things like, "She's not actually nude -- her nipple is never seen!" or "Sure you can see her nipple through her wet t-shirt, but it's not showing!" or "She's wearing latex paint! It's not technically nudity!"

Give me a break. It's not the issue of nudity -- the issue is of intent.

I think that skin and nakedness can be powerful images from an artistic standpoint, but I haven't seen too many uses that I felt did that well (28 Days Later is one of the few recent good example usages that I can think of right now). The majority of the time, it feels like it's used as shameless fanservice using butts and boobs to try and appeal to our baser instincts and popularize something that otherwise wouldn't stand on its own. It's like hiring a busty bikini-clad woman to advertise a restaurant -- you wouldn't do that for a quality family-friendly sports pub if it's already doing well, but it's what we would expect from places like Hooters. We already know that OA is a great game without relying on sex to sell it -- why cheapen what is already here? As other users have pointed out in this thread and in the last one, OA has a chance to really stand out in this area as a good multiplayer FPS, and be a fun game that people of many ages can enjoy together -- I think that's part of the power of games, and it's one reason why I promote these as good friendship-building activities.

(I'm going to try and nip the violence issue in the bud, since it has been mentioned a few times. I'd kindly ask that if you want to talk about that issue (which is an important one), that we start a new thread -- I'd please prefer to stay on the topic of sexuality here.)

Dmn_clown -- to answer your call for helpful suggestions, I would propose that OA adopt a clear set of standards and stick to them as a rallying point to quell further discussions. I don't enjoy bringing this topic up repeatedly, and I imagine it's one that others get tired of as well. I thought there was a standard with the "there will be no nudity" thing, but apparently I misunderstood how that would be played out. Given that other people were disappointingly surprised at the turn of direction in 0.7, it seems that I'm not the only one who misunderstood the intent of the project's "standards".

I would propose that OA adopts a standard that says something like "base-pack humanoid forms will be modeled and textured in attire that is not blatantly sexual". Content that is otherwise should be available as a downloadable expansion that must be intentionally obtained and installed.

While that's what I would like to see, I can't say I wouldn't be surprised if others didn't go for that set of standards, but I think that adopting such a wide-appealing standard for the base install could really help OA see wider adoption.

Thanks for your time and your attention -- it is appreciated.

Respectfully,
clint
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2007, 01:39:37 PM »

I do not want to make a user account for myself so I write with W1ZrD's account since I am his girlfriend.

I don't play the game very much but I do play occasionally so that gives me the right to give my opinion. I like the people who play the Open Arena game and I play because it is nice people here and that is also the reason that I play the game. I simply play because it is fun, nothing else. And I want to keep playing the game as long as it stays fun. Of course I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I feel ridiculed by some of the models in the game. Not because I am a woman, not because I am over 17 and not because I am blond with breasts, but because I simply do not understand the whole idea why people want to use, or even have, these models that are obviously designed with some boys deepest and darkest fantasies coming true, in mind. I thought the purpose of the game was to be running around in an arena where you are supposed to disintegrate your opponents with an arsenal of weapons. What I see is people discussing who has the biggest breasts on their model, while all I want to do is to play the game. I was following some players while waiting for my turn to play and they were standing comparing their models exaggerated proportions with each other. When that was done and over with, then it went on to try and take a peek under the skirt of the Kyonshi model, after that it was time to find some holes in the Jenna models jeans and t-shirt. What is wrong with you people?

I do realize that this is individual stupidity but I really do not see the argument, or logic, behind having some completely random models all pushed in to a game that simply makes it look like an unorganized distortion of teenage boys wet dreams. I would doubt that we would ever have muscular firemen dressed in nothing but skimpy shorts in the same place as the Angelyss model.
/Linda
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 01:39:58 PM »

When Arachna was being skinned I had a couple of ideas for her top, but no one (in IRC) liked them as they 'break the character' and such.

She was also made within one week before the release (a rushed model in a bit less than 2 days) so there wasn't much time for secondary decisions to make that promised 7/7 date.

The intent wasn't to get anyone riled up honestly. Her character is an outlandish elf with an intent to kill like everyone else, plus there's nothing the hair is hiding anyway. Most of my focus actually went onto the face, trying to make it NOT look like Angelyss.

Unreal on the other hand had actual nudity in it, there's even a breast gib. UT2003/4 is a lot more clean however. There's nothing in the ESRB content descriptor of that game that warn of this. Ditto for RTCW, in which has a female zombie with an exposed breast for example.

EDIT: lol, i think you just ran into a bunch of random pervs on a server. Not all players are like that really. Most don't care and have forcemodel on anyway Sad

There's the Beret character, which is pretty man enough though he appears kind of small heh. I also almost forgot about Gargoyle as well, especially for the fact that the original model had a penis.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 02:03:39 PM by leilol » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2007, 07:33:36 PM »

Don't forget the bot chat language too.   

This reminds me of a thought to replace all the blood with water and impacts with foam darts.

also don't confuse 'scantily clad' with 'topless', shes not naked  Sad this kind of 'nudity' is actually acceptable in like a T rated game (see DarkStalkers). They have as much bits as Barbie(r) dolls. As for the animation she's a bit bouncy but not as exaggerated as anything in Dead or Alive.       Not really made for 'exploitation of women' in mind actually. I'm female and I like the character myself and do prefer using it (angelyss/dark in particular)

Maybe I should put a warning on the site or something, but not enforce it


Ok, I'll redo the chat language so that everything is life affirming, no one's feelings will be hurt, and there will be no suggestion of sex violence or rock and roll, the gibs will be replaced with confetti, and gargoyle will be given pants.  Cause dammit someone needs to think of the children.

*sigh*
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 07:56:43 PM by dmn_clown » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2007, 09:59:23 PM »

Hey, it was no problem for doom3
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 08:09:29 AM »

(My two cents -- yeah I know "go back to GTKRadiant" ^^)

I don't believe it's relevant to compare OA with commercial productions as the ESRB (the S.E.L.L. or PEGI) are (weirdly) rating video games content before they hit stores. I also believe Doom3's spider women is closer to demon than human and that's why no one cares -- like having naked IMP in Doom never bothered anyone -- that's my point of view, I never said it was the only reason (plus Doom3 model isn't attractive at all -- attraction may be another reason, like "28 days later" example)
Meanwhile, I can understand both parts. However, it makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable because it's a religious/cultural matter: why can't you see some parts of the skin while no one bother to see what's UNDER the skin? And... Wait ! Those women don't have their hair covered?!
I agree with Linda about this:
(I do not want to make a user account for myself so I write with W1ZrD's account since I am his girlfriend.)
(...) but I really do not see the argument, or logic, behind having some completely random models all pushed in to a game that simply makes it look like an unorganized distortion of teenage boys wet dreams.

I don't mind nudity, I don't mind breasts, but I hardly see the connection with the arena.
I'd like to propose something: let's make screenshots of "inconvenient models" and try to paint over a little bit to find a good compromise (although, I know there are "more important" things to care about). It's just a proposition.



I would doubt that we would ever have muscular firemen dressed in nothing but skimpy shorts in the same place as the Angelyss model.
(Wink)
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2007, 09:18:46 AM »

I would doubt that we would ever have muscular firemen dressed in nothing but skimpy shorts in the same place as the Angelyss model.
(Wink)

Yes, give the girls a fireman, and give us something like this

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=2916

She is practicing strafe jumping.
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2007, 01:34:55 PM »

no way am i giving oa ff7's Tifa. Besides, she's already available for quake3
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hyp3rfocus
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2007, 02:12:11 PM »

rough sketch for you supermatic.

i did the new clothes, hair and eyes, but the model is openarena's anglelyss, pretty much unmodified apart from the subsurf.

the tifa model that leileilol mentioned is available on ioquake3's site. here's the link for the model page...
http://ioquake3.org/?page=models
...and here's a direct link for tifa...
http://ioquake3.org/files/models2/q3mdl-tifa.zip
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 02:43:18 PM by hyp3rfocus » Logged
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