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Mr. Oho
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2008, 12:43:41 pm »

ROFL you crack me up! I contribute some SERIOUS thoughts (that actualy argue at least a bit in YOUR FAVOR) then accuse me of talking shit without commenting on anything i sayd and request me not to reply punched Haha your funny...

P.S.: Dont reply to that not because i dont wanna fight but because i just love having the last word punched
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2008, 12:46:24 pm »

hehe.. ok, This became funny, yes u did some nice posts, but you are not doing it now.! haha
PERIOD.! Cheesy

Ok ok, lets go back to the main topic and wait for fromhell's answer.
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Mr. Oho
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« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2008, 12:51:13 pm »

Agreed Tongue
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« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2008, 12:54:12 pm »

PERIOD:! Cheesy
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kit89
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« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2008, 03:41:22 pm »

Quote
And you are right, there are SOME maps, only a few.. mainly water maps where vertex is completely a disadvantage, but in some others like the pic I posted its useful, and a lot.!

That picture you posted is mainly down to poor lighting. Unless the map was deliberately designed to have such dark shadows.

I myself don't deliberately create shadows that dark, unless I want a specifically dark area, for hiding etc. Proper lighting should enhance a maps visuals but not restrict in a serious way the ability to see.

Luckily the map is Open Source. Wink
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« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2008, 03:48:59 pm »

Quote
And you are right, there are SOME maps, only a few.. mainly water maps where vertex is completely a disadvantage, but in some others like the pic I posted its useful, and a lot.!

That picture you posted is mainly down to poor lighting. Unless the map was deliberately designed to have such dark shadows.
Proper lighting should enhance a maps visuals but not restrict in a serious way the ability to see.

Yes I understand that, I can make it "brighter" but my eyes say OUCH! even if its a dark place it should be possible to see everything, like u do in Doom 3 for example..!
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kit89
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« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2008, 04:08:27 pm »

Quote
Yes I understand that, I can make it "brighter" but my eyes say OUCH! even if its a dark place it should be possible to see everything, like u do in Doom 3 for example..!

My apologies for not making it clearer. But what I said was in-reference as the map developer, & not just a gamer. The mapper can decide how dark or light he wants to make his shadows, I personally try to keep shadows in my maps visible but at the same time not pitch black that you cant see the texture underneath.

I personally find the shadows in that particular map to be too dark.
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<< ME >>
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« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2008, 04:13:02 pm »

Thanks for the explanation and Sir. You are right. Some maps are too dark and thats not good at all.
How can it be fixed without increasing the brightness and hurting the player's sight?   Easy... vertex..!! Cheesy

But wait, thats not all..
There are some maps with too many textures too and those textures make sometimes hard to see ur enemy, even if u are using Force Player Model or some brightskins... How can we solve that??? Vertex!  Cheesy

Its not about winning all the time, its about enjoy the game for real.! and I do... with Vertex ...!! Cheesy Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 04:20:19 pm by << ME >> » Logged

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kit89
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« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2008, 04:18:12 pm »

Quote
How can it be fixed without increasing the brightness and hurting the player's sight?   Easy... vertex..!! Cheesy

No taking the source & modifying the lighting to suit. The joys of having the source files available. Smiley

In fact for that particular map it should just be a case of a simple command: ambient 5
Then a simple re-compile. Job done. Smiley

That command will overall lighten the map & lighten the shadows to a more respectable level.
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« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2008, 04:31:42 pm »

Quote
How can it be fixed without increasing the brightness and hurting the player's sight?   Easy... vertex..!! Cheesy

No taking the source & modifying the lighting to suit. The joys of having the source files available. Smiley

In fact for that particular map it should just be a case of a simple command: ambient 5
Then a simple re-compile. Job done. Smiley

That command will overall lighten the map & lighten the shadows to a more respectable level.

Im sorry, maybe you think Im stubborn, but I just want to give you my reasons...

Yes, of course u can modify the source and everything... but... Who is gonna take that responsability?? as I said there are many maps like that "darky" one and lets dont lie each other, thats gonna take a lot of time...

And Yes.! we can use that superhyper cool command, but only the ppl who KNOW about those commands... You may think, wait the Admins should know about that... well... unfortunately... NO! not all the admins out there know the commands!

But ok, that can be solved too, how? posting a list of "useful commands for Admins", and Who is gonna do that??? Im asking you because when someone asked for a simillar post!! no one said even "fuck you Im bussy" nor "Im sorry bud, I have not enough time for that" so... thats why Im telling you all this..!

You are right, but who is going to make all that stuff ?? and do it properly...!?

Besides, maybe Im wrong, but, removing Vertex light is not going to spend some usefull time to do some other important things?
Or its just about a "delete  button" thing?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 04:40:49 pm by << ME >> » Logged

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kit89
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« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2008, 04:55:54 pm »

Quote
Yes, of course u can modify the source and everything... but... Who is gonna take that responsability?? as I said there are many maps like that "darky" one and lets dont lie each other, thats gonna take a lot of time...

Well for starts you could. The sources are available for all in the SVN. The amount of maps in the SVN that need minor tweaks, like lighting are very small. Most default maps are fairly respectable when it comes to lighting.

There are many mappers around these forums willing to resolve errors. So long as there is a bug report stating a problem.

Quote
And Yes.! we can use that superhyper cool command, but only ppl who know about those commands... You may think, wait the Admins should know about that... well... unfortunately... NO! not all the admins out there!

If your referring to the "ambient 5" command that's for the q3map2 compiler at development. It's not a server nor client command.

Quote
But ok, that can be solved too, how? posting a list of "useful commands for Admins", and Who is gonna do that??? Im asking you because when someone ask for a simillar post!! no one said even "fuck you Im bussy" nor "Im sorry bud, I have not enough time for that" so... thats why Im telling you all this..!

Admins should know all the commands they need. When it comes to poor lighting that's solely on the level of knowledge & skill of the developer. It has nothing to do with Admins. There are list all over the internet about commands you can use in q3 engine.

Quote
You are right, but who is going to make all that stuff ?? and do it properly...!?

Generally the developer of the map or code or whatever will take sole responsibility. As developers always want to fix problems arisen in their own work. However if these bugs are not made aware to the developer. Then he will not do anything about it. If the developer is no longer there then someone else will resolve the problem. For example: me(kit89).

Quote
Besides, maybe Im wrong, but, removing Vertex light is not going to spend some usefull time to do some other important things?
Or its just about a "delete  button" thing?

Sorry, but that made no sense to me...
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« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2008, 05:43:29 pm »

Quote
Besides, maybe Im wrong, but, removing Vertex light is not going to spend some usefull time to do some other important things?
Or its just about a "delete  button" thing?

Sorry, but that made no sense to me...


Yes, sorry that has no sense  Cheesy ... I mean, Why remove vertex if we can just let the things as the way they are now...?
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kit89
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« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2008, 06:02:31 pm »

Quote
Yes, sorry that has no sense  Cheesy ... I mean, Why remove vertex if we can just let the things as the way they are now...?

Because vertex lighting is in short crap. Unfair, & in the modern day of computers not required. Smiley
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« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2008, 06:05:42 pm »

And we get back to the begining...  **sigh**
Its not crap, not unfair and sometimes it IS required... anyways.. thats my opinion...
As I said, fromhell.. dont do this plz!!!  reconsider everything what we've posted. !
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Mr. Oho
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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2008, 07:23:25 pm »

And now for something completly different Tongue

I know it has been mentioned before but from what i saw there wasnt realy any reply on it and i fear it might be forgotten Tongue Is there any chance of seeing cl_allowDownload default to 1? As long as the engine by default doesnt run native code i dont see a security problem with this and it would greatly help the distribution of custom maps and mods.
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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2008, 10:10:00 pm »

Is there any chance of seeing cl_allowDownload default to 1?
No way in hell:
- Security reasons, i mean would you like to autodownload a unbindall pak?
- Non-Free content reasons, there are people iffy about Free Software obtaining non-Free stuff by default.
- It's up to the user's discretion to enable it at their own risk.
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Mr. Oho
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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2008, 10:20:45 pm »

Sad but true your right Sad But maybe some nice message? That surely wouldnt hurt anyone Tongue
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Taiyo.uk
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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2008, 11:26:57 pm »

My thoughts on on vertex lighting:
  • It is harder to find graphics hardware that doesn't handle lightmapping than hardware that does nowadays.
  • As for darkness, vertex lighting is not a substitute for correct monitor adjustment.
  • Being able to aim at players in intentionally dark areas of a map is a skill, and using vertex lighting to compensate for a lack of this skill is cheating.

I don't think it's necessary to keep it.
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fufinha
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« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2008, 01:03:57 am »

Because vertex lighting is in short crap. Unfair, & in the modern day of computers not required. Smiley

I dont know how long you have known this game but I wouldn't say it it falls under the category of crap since I would be able to create the same effect using a combination of cvars. I wouldn't need r_intensity.

I have no idea how you find it unfair, when people have options to change their display, including their driver settings, then in theory, maybe about 90% of the people are playing unfairly by your logic.

It is clear the some maps are created with a lack of lighting therefore there has to be some substitute, you think brightness is enough for this huh?

So unless you are able to disable my driver settings along with about 6 cvars then perhaps you could say it's fair, for all the people with good spec systems.

Now someone suggests hitting a dark player in a dark corner is a skill. What if that dark player is seeing you as a fat green fairy with a pointy hat with a letter D on it. Think again.

cl_allowdownload doesnt matter. That will dissapear too. It will be one of the last things to go from the client options. If it does still exist in the future then it will be restricted to a selection of paks classified and only downloadable by sources OpenArena dev team. Remember this is an experimental project.

God, I can't wait to see what good stuff is contained in the next release that will motivate any admin to download it Smiley

So I take it these changes wont be implemented ioq3? You know, the people you only hear about when things go wrong with OA.

As far as I see it, this is a non-issue. It only affects people who play on servers which are absolutely clean from any additional custom code, and they are using nothing else other than the baseoa packages.

When the day comes that a user has no config or options to change and unable to enjoy anything that is ONLY available from the OA experiment then good luck with that.

Mr. Oho, do not expect any answers to your questions. You are more likely to be considered a parisite  as the download option will be of benefit to you - not to the OA experient. That is why there is a lack of input from anyone knowledgable contributing in this thread. btw. Some peoples first native language may not be English, maybe worth considering before laughing at people, I can see alot of people appear to be French, but it is perhaps easier to understand these words than some others.

edit: oops i better fix my own mistakes first Smiley especially since i am an english speaker, but I just woke up so there maybe others Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 01:11:38 am by missbehaving » Logged
fromhell
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« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2008, 01:08:30 am »

what kind of conspiracy are you cooking
i'm gonna split this thread up
i AM definitely considering removal of vertex lighting since the defense behind it is usually unrealistic whine
I think Quake Live might remove vertex lighting too
it's time to move on
whether this makes me lose 99% of the player base doesn't matter, i'd rather get this project evolving looking as intended than to cater to a few fullbright freaks.

It also doesn't take much to play at max detail with lightmaps at a great framerate (100+), a sweet athlon 700mhz rig with a geforce2mx can do it just fine at max, and that's considered ancient by today's AND yesterday's standards.

You're making me wish I wasn't developing OA because I have to put up with all these vertexlight-loving dorks. What if you were in my shoes, would you like to make art and maps with atmospheric shadows that would be thrown away by those who play to win? There's a game for those
It's no problem for Nexuiz since their community isn't inherited from Q3.
I'm going to lock this for now because I am upset
whether this spells the fate for the next version will be decided later
i've had it and you're going to have to fucking live with it. There is no logically convincing reason to keep it
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 02:02:30 am by leilol » Logged

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fromhell
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« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2008, 12:14:22 pm »

i AM also definitely considering removal of intensity
it is a blatant cheat, makes invisible players visible and craps the graphics quake2 style and it was intended for video cards without hardware gamma (powervr pcx1/2), which is a extreme rarity nowadays and won't even work with the game anyway.

i'm supposed to be invisible
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asking when OA3 will be done won't get OA3 done.
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zuma
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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2008, 06:24:29 pm »

aye i use r_intensity, together with r_overbrightbits 0 and r_mapoverbrightbits 0-2. gives softer look
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jackoverfull
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2008, 10:11:13 pm »

about that removals...

what will happen if someone will use a custom build of the engine with vertex or intensity re-enabled? is it possible to avoid that changing something in pk3s? because that would really be a way to cheat, imho...
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Mr. Oho
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« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2008, 02:13:32 am »

what will happen if someone will use a custom build of the engine with vertex or intensity re-enabled? is it possible to avoid that changing something in pk3s? because that would really be a way to cheat, imho...

I thought about this too but gave it up because the person who would do this possibly already build an engine that doesnt display walls or shadows or anything at all... ;/ The answer to all these problems is anticheat support but its a hard task and of questionable value as all of these things get circumvented or cracked.
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jackoverfull
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« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2008, 04:03:44 am »

i agree. but this time risks to be even worse: the cheating guys will not need to write any line of code, since it will be still awailable on ioq3 svn, ready to be enabled again…
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