Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Idea: SP Training maps (QL-course-like)  (Read 13939 times)
Neon_Knight
In the year 3000
***

Cakes 49
Posts: 3763


Trickster God.


« on: June 15, 2009, 04:16:06 PM »

Simple as it sounds.
The idea is to make training maps for players. These should be unlocked from the beginning, (They'll be marked with the "training" special key on arenas.txt, as q3dm0 is) so players which are very familiarized with the game would start directly in the first Tier.

Something like QL's training course with Crash or the DM tutorial map from Unreal Tournament.

Every match would end with a 1on1 bot fight.

I think something like this can work:
- TrainingMap01: How to move, how to shoot, basic weapons.
- TrainingMap02: Items, Powerups, some advanced moves (strafe jump?) and some tips (timing? I don't know what else)
- TrainingMap03: Advanced moves (circle jump, jumps with weapons) and other tips (I can't figure out which ones)
- TrainingMap04: 1on1 match.

What do you think about it?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 08:32:18 AM by |TXC| Neon_Knight » Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
Want to contribute? Read this.
sago007
Posts a lot
*

Cakes 62
Posts: 1664


Open Arena Developer


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 04:27:32 PM »

I worked in creating a dm0 at one point (http://files.poulsander.com/~poul19/public_files/intooa.pk3). My idea was that the player stated alone in a room and could get some items by crushing and jumping, so the player would have the advantage before entering the field.

I don't think you can fully compare the objective of OA's training to that of QL. QL uses the training to guess the players skill level (with limited success) the training map is not meant to actually teach you anything.
Logged

There are nothing offending in my posts.
pulchr
Member


Cakes 34
Posts: 626



WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2009, 04:56:11 PM »

add a tier in the singleplayer mode where the games are fought in capture the flag mode instead of ffa Cheesy
Logged
sago007
Posts a lot
*

Cakes 62
Posts: 1664


Open Arena Developer


WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 05:08:34 PM »

add a tier in the singleplayer mode where the games are fought in capture the flag mode instead of ffa Cheesy
The missionpack has the singleplayer cvar to allow that
Logged

There are nothing offending in my posts.
bill-----
Half-Nub


Cakes 8
Posts: 60


« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 07:20:06 PM »

This is a recurring fantasy of mine.  I recall reading in some post of sago007's that
new players can be overwhelmed by maps and player skill when they get on multi-player
servers.  Most of us reading this weren't driven away by that experience, but some others
have been and will be. 

A steady progression of maps, in which weapons, powerups, various other game features,
trick jumps, tactics, item management, etc. are gradually introduced, and ending in
a tourney, just as Neon Knight has proposed.  Maybe 5 or 6 maps. 

Back to the earlier point, the proposed tier might improve things for the beginning player on a
multiplayer server.  Not only would the training maps be easier to move around in and have less
stuff to keep in mind, they might not be interesting enough for the skilled players
to hang around on and 'own'. :-) 

Pick a couple of simple, consistent texture sets, say those from spirit, sleekgrinder or similar.
No gothic, please. :-)  Do the same with basic architectural elements (see spirit and sleekgrinder again).
Adapt parts of existing maps that contain the game aspects to be introduced in the training map,
and you don't have to invent the layout from scratch, plus the game aspects will be familiar when
they are encountered in the 'real' maps later.

Sounds like a great idea!  Now if I could just do something about the job, family, sleep ... . :-)

Logged
MIOW
Lesser Nub


Cakes 5
Posts: 141


I play to win.


« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 07:33:49 PM »

The idea is pretty cool, besides the fact that QL really doesn't have any helpful training level Wink
IIRC there is training in UrT and in many other games.
Of course the most important moment is movement: rocket jumps, circle jumps, strafe jumps. Something like defrag map with different stages explaining every aspect of movement.
Then which weapon useful in which situation, e.g. hints that you can stay upstairs and shoot bot with RL, or LG can save you when you're staying downstairs in disadvantaged position (something like RL placement on aggressor, but i don't like that map), that plasma is deadly in corridors, etc... Explanation on which distance each weapon work, that dangerous to make self-damage with RL or PG...
Basic info about powerups, what everyone of them does, that it's necessary to time and collect powerups.
How to hide and wait your opponent in unexpected places, how to escape with flag...
No idea how is it hard to implement, but would be great if bot can do some sequence of actions, e.g. show trick when player should watch, and then player can join and try to repeat the same...
Logged
Ivan_D
Nub


Cakes -1
Posts: 27



« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 03:45:37 AM »

Quote
The idea is to make training maps for players. These should be unlocked from the beginning, (They'll be marked with the "training" special key on arenas.txt, as q3dm0 is) so players which are very familiarized with the game would start directly in the first Tier.

Every match will end with a 1on1 bot fight.

I think something like this can work:
- TrainingMap01: How to move, how to shoot, basic weapons.
- TrainingMap02: Items, Powerups, some advanced moves (strafe jump?) and some tips (timing? I don't know what else)
- TrainingMap03: Advanced moves (circle jump, jumps with weapons) and other tips (I can't figure out which ones)

What do you think about it?

Recording the videotutorials containing explainations how to do stuff with examples would be better (I'm talking about recording vids like "Genesis - The Beginning Of"). About maps: for movements you can grab a few already-made-and-tested great defrag maps (well, or cut them to fit your needs), for weapons and game tactics learning there is nothing better than teaching how to play maps that ppl are playing online everyday (because different maps = different ways of how weapons should be used + tactics should not be just theoretical).
We, 6R, can provide demos from our clan matches to be sliced in pieces and included in the vid to show good ways of how things should be done.

A few more words: things like strafe jumping couldn't be learnt for half an hour jumping on some custom map, this has to be explained in details and requires a lot of time to master on at least medium level. For different gametypes different clans can be asked to explain things (like j9 can explain insta, uM: tdm and ca, etc). Valherus might share their experience of playing on foreign servers with lag >150ms.

Could be more useful than just 3 maps with interactive text tutorials imho.

Quote
Something like QL's training course with Crash.
But well, if the goal is to be like ql, then nothing that I said before matters.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 04:16:33 AM by Ivan_D » Logged

In Soviet Russia OpenArena plays you!
MIOW
Lesser Nub


Cakes 5
Posts: 141


I play to win.


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 04:52:24 PM »

Recording the videotutorials containing explainations how to do stuff with examples would be better (I'm talking about recording vids like "Genesis - The Beginning Of").
Yes, that's how they made it in Warsow http://www.warsow.net/  (Warsow Movement School)
But the idea is to provide training in more interactive and easy to get form, which comes with game, so players can get some basics before joining public servers. That's a popular practice for many of existing games too. I doubt that in the world where people still use IE6 many of newcomers will watch video tutorials and learn from them before starting to play Wink Tons of defrag videos are already available on Youtube, but many players don't have a knowledge of strafe jumping for months of playing.

About maps: for movements you can grab a few already-made-and-tested great defrag maps (well, or cut them to fit your needs)
There's license issue. I think there's only possibility that some of authors of defrag maps could help with making training level for OA.

for weapons and game tactics learning there is nothing better than teaching how to play maps that ppl are playing online everyday (because different maps = different ways of how weapons should be used + tactics should not be just theoretical).
We, 6R, can provide demos from our clan matches to be sliced in pieces and included in the vid to show good ways of how things should be done.

A few more words: things like strafe jumping couldn't be learnt for half an hour jumping on some custom map, this has to be explained in details and requires a lot of time to master on at least medium level. For different gametypes different clans can be asked to explain things (like j9 can explain insta, uM: tdm and ca, etc). Valherus might share their experience of playing on foreign servers with lag >150ms.

Could be more useful than just 3 maps with interactive text tutorials imho.
Well, the idea is to provide basics, it's not supposed to be completely tutorial which will lead player to a high skill level. Of course player will learn more about weapons from playing everyday online, but this training is supposed to be a good starting point.
Just text help doesn't make a lot of sense. If it would be more interactive also with bots actions, camera effects and such stuff... Again, i have no idea how is it hard to implement.

Playing with high ping is not a problem with unlagged. But this is a very good idea to make video tutorials from more skilled players and provide them on dedicated page on openarena.ws
But,... you know Wink This board even lacks "Clans" section, e.g. Urban Terror, Alien Arena, Tremulous and Warsow forums have it.

Quote
Something like QL's training course with Crash.
But well, if the goal is to be like ql, then nothing that I said before matters.
+1. This is not a decent goal.
Logged
Neon_Knight
In the year 3000
***

Cakes 49
Posts: 3763


Trickster God.


« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 05:05:26 PM »

Quote
Something like QL's training course with Crash.
But well, if the goal is to be like ql, then nothing that I said before matters.
+1. This is not a decent goal.
Nobody has said that, I've just cited as an example the course. A more closer & precise example can be the DM training map of Unreal Tournament's SinglePlayer mode.
Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
Want to contribute? Read this.
MIOW
Lesser Nub


Cakes 5
Posts: 141


I play to win.


« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 04:18:20 PM »

Yes, that's how they made it in Warsow http://www.warsow.net/  (Warsow Movement School)
Also Warsow has tutorials availabe from main menu. It's demos with text help and camera effects. Check this out.
Logged
sago007
Posts a lot
*

Cakes 62
Posts: 1664


Open Arena Developer


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 05:03:08 PM »

I am more for the video idea than the training tier idea.

The game's most fascinating qualities is that you don't have to learn a lot of things to have fun but at the same time: you are not done discovering the game after learning it.

I would optimally see the videos replacing the tier videos so that the player can see the tricks along the way but without scaring the player off to quickly. The first videos should be nothing more than using items or rules for other gametypes.

Things like rocket jump, strafe jumping and then circle jumps should come much later then the player have gotten used to the basic game. And even then the videos should just show what is possible (teasing a little) rather than demonstrating how useless the player is and encouraging him to stop playing on his computer right now.

I notice that many sees rocket, strafe and circle jumping as fundamental techniques and I disagree: They might be needed on many online servers but OA is not like a submarine simulator that requires hours of studying to get past the first 5 minutes (not that you will survive the first 5 minutes but staying alive is not the objective either).
Logged

There are nothing offending in my posts.
chaoticsoldier
Member


Cakes 18
Posts: 375


This space intentionally left blank.


« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 07:17:10 PM »

There is quite a lot to learn. Would it be better to have a separate "training" menu? If enough effort was put in it could rival any other game's training course, teaching players about all aspects of the game and about every game type.

Videos could be categorised: (example)

General lessons
- the basics (movement, items, shooting etc)
- strategies (collecting armour and health, when to fight and when to run away, how to use each weapon, how to avoid being hit etc)
- advanced movement (rocket jumps, strafe jumping)

Deathmatch
- overview
- tactics

Capture the Flag
- overview
- tactics

Last Man Standing
- overview
- tactics

etc etc etc

Perhaps custom maps could be made (just for the videos) to demonstrate simple principles. For example - in the video that explains Capture the Flag, have both flags a short distance away so the viewer can see one flag being taken and brought to the other flag.
Logged

0101100101101111011101010010011101110110011001010010000001101010011101010111001101110100001000000111011101100001011100110111010001100101011001000010000001111001011011110111010101110010001000000111010001101001011011010110010100101110
bill-----
Half-Nub


Cakes 8
Posts: 60


« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 08:43:39 PM »

"... rather than demonstrating how useless the player is and encouraging him to stop playing on his computer right now.".  Well said, sago007!
deFrag run maps come to mind. :-)

I liked the UT in-game training but I don't think that's an option that will appear in OA anytime soon, unless there's a mod maker willing
to go to work on it. 

It might be hard to remember when such things were challenging (well some may *still* be :-)), but pointing and shooting,
switching weapons, staying on the move, tracking a target, walking a straight line while tracking a target, getting out of lava/slime/water,
leading with RL,  running away when low on health or outgunned, etc. should come well before trick jumping in a training program.  I like
chaoticsoldier's list of general lessons.

Perhaps staged demos to go with existing maps, one player with the viewpoint and another as the opponent, if necessary, showing
the principle of interest on one or more of the existing maps.  Choreographed like movie fight scenes (only not as complicated).
The beginner can watch them in-game, doesn't need extra software, (nor is extra software needed for producing them), can load the
same map the demo was on and practice to gain familiarity.


Logged
sago007
Posts a lot
*

Cakes 62
Posts: 1664


Open Arena Developer


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 06:56:34 AM »

I liked the UT in-game training but I don't think that's an option that will appear in OA anytime soon, unless there's a mod maker willing
to go to work on it. 
The original UT had such an in game training but it was based on the original Unreal and therefor already had the single player logic. UT2003 and UT2004 used videos only.

While I see real single player coding as a post 1.0 objective (earliest) the engine does actually offer a few ways of making training maps: Such as protected spawn areas and triggers. You just need some imagination.
Logged

There are nothing offending in my posts.
MIOW
Lesser Nub


Cakes 5
Posts: 141


I play to win.


« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 08:39:16 PM »

I notice that many sees rocket, strafe and circle jumping as fundamental techniques and I disagree: They might be needed on many online servers but OA is not like a submarine simulator that requires hours of studying to get past the first 5 minutes (not that you will survive the first 5 minutes but staying alive is not the objective either).
Well, player even can do fine on certain positions in team-based gametypes or on certain maps without knowledge of movement techniques. But other elements of the game are intuitive understandable while movement is not. Player can get other basics of the game comparable quick after playing online and watching other players while movement will still remain a hidden part for him. And movement is the most big distinction from other FPS games.
On other hand, that's good point that movement part should probably come after everything else.

About videos. Isn't it like videos will be a huge size eater, even if videos are highly compressed? But it's possible to slice needed parts, use camera effects, show tricks in slow motion, add arrows, etc, to present it in ideal easy to understand form Smiley Yes, more like "Genesis - The Beginning Of". Already 10x more possibilities than demos can provide.

"... rather than demonstrating how useless the player is and encouraging him to stop playing on his computer right now.".  Well said, sago007!
deFrag run maps come to mind. :-)
Well, yes Smiley And no http://q3a.ath.cx/?mapdetails=BardoK-DA So at least easy for newbie to get to the end.
Logged
cosmo
Member


Cakes 18
Posts: 372


on a dead horse


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 04:19:13 AM »

So lets include a few demos to watch where advanced aspects of the game, like strafe and rocketjumping is shown. Singleplayer against bots is not challenging enough to enforce mastering of any of these skills and should not be that way. I regard singleplayer as quick and easy amusement equal to playing Mortal Kombat though without 'Finish Him'. Why should I learn any of this when I am running the game once in a while? It gets frustrating if it can only be beaten if I am capable of rocketjumping? I regard later UT2kx singleplayer as too staining, confusing for beginners and boring for advanced players.
The downside: Demos have to be recreated with any changes on used maps, protocol, etc
Logged

- HUNT HIGHSCORES - mapping - xmpp://cosmo@spaceboyz.net
MIOW
Lesser Nub


Cakes 5
Posts: 141


I play to win.


« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 07:45:47 AM »

besides the fact that QL really doesn't have any helpful training level Wink
I was wrong. QL also has two training levels. One for rocket jumps and second for circle and strafe jumps.
Both come with tutorial pages, videos and "LIVE Demonstations", which actualy are demos.
Logged
Neon_Knight
In the year 3000
***

Cakes 49
Posts: 3763


Trickster God.


« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 09:28:51 AM »

Page on the wiki:
(DO NOT LINK) h t t p s : / / openarena . wikia . com/wiki/Map_Ideas/Tutorial_Map
Logged


"Detailed" is nice, but if it gets in the way of clarity, it ceases being a nice addition and becomes a problem. - TVT
Want to contribute? Read this.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to: