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Author Topic: OA does not imitate Q3 perfectly it sucks  (Read 10966 times)
fromhell
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« on: February 07, 2010, 12:24:51 am »

So what? You're missing the point. If you want that for free, you go to Quake Live. OA does not intend to replicate Q3 bit by bit (at least, not anymore)


(this is addressing to many complaints on the OA/q3 'quality' comparison, comparing a free spare time project with a big budgeted one made by professionals. This thread is a concern for the data, not the code)


- The announcer is perfect to me, I can't think of anyone better to permanently replace him, and I don't even want to replace him. You should've heard the 0.7 announcer.
- We don't have a motion capture studio for player animations. I'm doing the best I can to get bones to move right. Alone.
- Sorry that half the levels aren't drenched in orange, littered with skull/baphomet clip art, and lava. Q3 is good, but there are lots of things I hate about its art design direction, 'id satanic' gets old really quick and I am glad Adrian Carmack is fired at id Software.
- Do you want a refund?
- "fromhell doesnt care about pros" is only smoke and mirrors of illusions coming from the community's choice of stigmatic words themselves. I only make the data; the overdefensive behavior and the 'play to win' does not bring myself motivated to make artwork for the game when it's going to be dipstickped and forcemodeled to personal advantage of ego.
- Vertex light is still going, it brings no technical benefit for performance gain on computers made past the year of 2000. It is a cvar built for supporting 1996-98 video chipsets with single TMUs; not Carmack's 'ideal vision of a pro gaming experience'. It is an OBSOLETE feature that should be disabled except for special cases where it will actually benefit performance (Voodoo 1/Banshee, early PowerVR cards).

actually on second thought, vertexlight should just be rewritten to translate automatically from the lightmap/lightgrid so it doesn't bring the 'no lighting' advantage anymore.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 12:44:18 am by leilol » Logged
Martian
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 05:10:55 am »

So what? You're missing the point. If you want that for free, you go to Quake Live. OA does not intend to replicate Q3 bit by bit (at least, not anymore)

Agree.  I was thinking, what about model specific advantages and weakness.
Like, give the catwoman power to jump higher, but give us ability to hold her
by tail if she carry the flag.


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xkvtztvkx
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 05:12:29 am »

Complaining about the quality of Openarena is a bit weak. It's an open source project, if you don't like something then learn to use Blender/Zeroradiant/Gimp or whatever and fix it yourself. If people can't be bothered to fix stuff themselves then why do they expect other people to be bothered?

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 05:54:03 am »

Agree.  I was thinking, what about model specific advantages and weakness.
Like, give the catwoman power to jump higher, but give us ability to hold her
by tail if she carry the flag.

Ahahahhaaaa! GENIUS!!!!!!!!
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Bane
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 06:12:33 am »

Hey fromhell you brought up you are trying to get bones to move right. By bones do you mean there will be a new skeleton avatar in the next release and you are currently working on his movements or do you mean something else?
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Graion Dilach
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 06:26:50 am »

I think she meant the making of the animation.cfgs and all their relevant data. Many bone of the bodies, not the Q3 character.
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kit89
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 08:20:07 am »

Quote
Hey fromhell you brought up you are trying to get bones to move right. By bones do you mean there will be a new skeleton avatar in the next release and you are currently working on his movements or do you mean something else?

fromhell, was referring to a Characters Rigg/Skeleton. All OpenArena Character have a Skeleton which is used to animate them. Once the Character has been animated in the set frame limit you've then got to modify the animation.cfg so the Engine knows which frames to run for a particular animation. Which is a mystical art in itself and one I never mastered. Wink
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Falkland
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 12:18:32 pm »

[...]not Carmack's 'ideal vision of a pro gaming experience' [...]

Carmack has never had a PRO GAMING experience vision : he categorically refused all the changes going in that way , causing in fact the born of OSP/CPMA mods. And it's a fact that all competitions were based on those mods also when VQ3 was the choosen gameplay ( which is translated as OSP/CPMA VQ3 = all additional features of OSP/CPMA + Vanilla Q u a k e 3 Gameplay ) .

Another fact is that the latest QL update has added more CPMA features : that means the game is following arQon vision.

Another fact is that John Carmack is at the moment involved in real rockets design/realization ... hopefully he has finally learnt to take care of how object's speed is calculated ( eg the sound speed when the sources is moving itself causing the doppler effect ) or at least to code the correct objects' speed calculation....
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Baba Owl
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 03:32:30 pm »

This game is fine, a tasteful piece of art (from the graphics to sounds, to the levels and way it plays -> everything w/ a massive sprinkle of humour) - being an artist myself, I would know. Smiley

Having played all the Quakes, I can safely say this is my fav. I'm tired of "serious" things and pro-gamers "ownage" or whatever you call it; srsly, what does it matter - is there money in it?? lol No, just fun. Therefore, who cares! Smiley

I'm a pretty skilled player but I got tired of all the "seriousness" of Quake3/ Live - I didn't think Live was a good game at all - severely unbalanced and crippled. Just because something is popular does not mean it is necessarily good. It is not a good game, not for me anyway.

Furthermore the art in this game is top notch and so funny, the characters are a blast and this game just makes me LOL like no other FPS 3D game ever did!!

You done the best free online 3D game, Lei - and that's all that matters. Wink

I have some minor improvements to suggest - but I'll leave that to another post - overall IT is a GREAT game and you SHOULD be all proud of yourselves for achieving and participating in it. Smiley

Lastly, it can be played and enjoyed at all skill levels, even for more skilled players such as myself - it just levels the playing field where ALL can enjoy a game and have fun laughing, where nothing else matters - which is something INDEED very rare.

GOOD JOB EVERYONE!! Cheesy Woo-hoo! Smiley
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Bane
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 05:32:14 pm »

Oh ok so that what she meant by bones thanks for the clarification guys

Well this game to me at least seemed more like what Quake Live was aiming for. I looked at the Quake website forums and they have changed so much about Quake like the hitboxs and some people complain about rails going thought people. Some weapons where toned down like the rail gun which damage now is 80 instead of 100 and to me that is just not right because the rail gun was meant as a sniper type weapon and meant to kill in one hit.  I was originally planning on trying Quake Live but while I was looking for video of it on Youtube I found Open Arena and gave it a try instead plus in Quake Live the one time I did get it to work I lagged like hell and that was just the tier placement match.

Also I totally get what Baba Owl is saying having playing many kinds of online games this is one of the few where I dont hear I pwned you fool or  I pwn all. I still remember not hearing these things in game the first time I played and I was shocked because usually with FPSs you hear them all the time everyday I usally just hear GGs from everyone and most people show good sportsmanship.
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RMF
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 06:59:06 pm »

Tbh this the only fps i ever played seriously, but i never noticed ppl saying 'pwned n00b' more in other games than in oa.
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schlorri
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 06:58:15 am »

Quote
Complaining about the quality of Openarena is a bit weak. It's an open source project, if you don't like something then learn to use Blender/Zeroradiant/Gimp or whatever and fix it yourself. If people can't be bothered to fix stuff themselves then why do they expect other people to be bothered?
NO! You can say when something is bad and you should say something. When some friend serves you a dinner, and it tastes like crap...you cannot eat it, you will say: "WOOOOOW ... thank you IT IS FREE \o/" ?
No, you will say: "Hey i like you, but this tastes like poo".

I dont want to say oa is poo, but oa has to be improved thats for sure. You cannot say: "I like this game Sad IT IS GOOD! IT HAS TO BE" and dont care about the fact oa has  <20 players sometimes(i'm taking global stats at the moment).

For example: There will ever be ppl saying oa_basesX is a good map, but i think we all know it is not.
Most ppl dont like oa_basesX -> without oa_basesX and WITH real maps you can have more players.


@fromhell: The goal should be to make this game look/sound good. You have to look at the visibility of the models, the sounds(they should be hearable) but the game can look good with visibility!
By good visible models i dont mean "WE NEED BRIGHTSKINS!!!111one", a game can be playable without brightskins but the oa-models are eyebreaking.

remove vertex is a good point, imo it give not much advantage at all when you have good visible models(look at the screenshot, i play like that). But some ppl need vertex to reach a decent framerate, this might sound crazy and you always say this is for 231 years old computers, but i've seen many players with a MUCH better framerate with vertexlight. Even on my laptop i can reach 10 fps more.

a_clown Smiley

PS: WOW this post is messy Sad, sorry
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 03:38:35 pm »

Quote
NO! You can say when something is bad and you should say something. When some friend serves you a dinner, and it tastes like crap...you cannot eat it, you will say: "WOOOOOW ... thank you IT IS FREE \o/" ?
No, you will say: "Hey i like you, but this tastes like poo".

Neither you nor I are saying openarena is crap, so making an analogy to a crappy meal is a strawman argument. This thread is about people complaining that openarena's style is not quake3's style. So if you want to use a meal analogy then it would go something like this-

Your friend spends a lot of time and effort cooking you italian food, but you prefer chinese food so you keep complaining that you'd rather have chinese. You could learn to cook chinese food yourself, but instead you prefer to sit on your arse and complain about what your friend makes for you.

Can you see how things might look a little different when an analogy is based on the actual situation?

Quote
You cannot say: "I like this game IT IS GOOD! IT HAS TO BE"

If you read my post carefully I never expressed an opinion on the quality of Openarena. Maybe there are things I don't like about it, but since I am capable of using Blender, Gimp and Zeroradiant I am able to do something about it, instead of just complaining about it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 04:34:50 pm by xkvtztvkx » Logged
schlorri
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 04:52:44 pm »

Quote
If you read my post carefully I never expressed an opinion on the quality of Openarena. Maybe there are things I don't like about it, but since I am capable of using Blender, Gimp and Zeroradiant I am able to do something about it, instead of just complaining about it.

Thats not the point and "I like this game IT IS GOOD! IT HAS TO BE" was not for you. It seems like fromhell does not WANT to change the visibility of the game. (nah thats hard to say, she does not care is better?)

Quote
Your friend spends a lot of time and effort cooking you italian food, but you prefer chinese food so you keep complaining that you'd rather have chinese. You could learn to cook chinese food yourself, but instead you prefer to sit on your arse and complain about what your friend makes for you.

Can you see how things might look a little different when an analogy is based on the actual situation?

So you want to say oa is just different? So why oa has no players?
Both, italian food and chinese food is tasty for the most of us, both is eatable. It is just preference. You will find many ppl enjoying chinese or italian food.
But you will not find many oa players. So imo there is something wrong.
(and you will find some ppl eating crazy shit Cheesy )


I know i can do something by myself and i tried already, but thats not the point.
( look  for example http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3095.0 http://openarena.ws/board/index.php?topic=3045.msg24615#msg24615)
You can and you have to say when something is bad.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 02:04:29 am »

I would like to say fromhell has done an awesome job with OpenArena. It is a fun, enjoyable game. IMHO, gameplay is far more important than graphics. I agree with Baba Owl that this game makes me LOL more than any game every did Cheesy During any given match, there are moments of hilarity in which I almost fall off my chair. Cheesy

<off-topic>
BTW, I wanted to say this earlier: Liz has the most perfect animal sounds. They make me laugh every time I play with the model. PLEASE DON'T CHANGE LIZ! Cheesy I know the crouch is horrible for Liz but I think it makes Liz unique and adds a level of variety to the game. You can almost argue that since Liz is a lizard, it (he?/she?) cannot crouch the normal (human?) way.  Cheesy
</off-topic>

One and only,
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Baba Owl
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 12:03:50 pm »

Yea Liz is great - now I use this model and it's hilarious!! lol..

Fighting Merman is a always a bucket of laughs - esp. how he behaves (his crouching and the guttural sounds he makes) - as a SP bot esp., haha.

I think what's putting off the majority of the players is the unusualness of the game - it looks *very* off-the-wall and not unlike any Quake game ever - it is very unconventional compared to what FPS games people are used to playing out there.

..but that's what I liked about it - it feels like an alien game lol - I'm bored of the norm.. lol.

So it's deff. going to attract people that are diff. from the norm - naturally - mostly a new breed of players and not Q3/Live purists/ traditionalists because they have their own type of game..

I think the best way to adv. this game is by popping screenshots in places and having an addy on the bottom of the pic, of this location for instance - where people can come and DL it.

-Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 01:08:41 pm »

Quote
So you want to say oa is just different? So why oa has no players?
Both, italian food and chinese food is tasty for the most of us, both is eatable. It is just preference. You will find many ppl enjoying chinese or italian food.
But you will not find many oa players. So imo there is something wrong.

The quality issues are debatable, but my problem is still with people who complain about things they don't like, but aren't prepared to do anything about that. People are treating openarena like a proprietry game and pestering the makers to change stuff they don't like, instead of remembering it's an open source project and getting involved. If there are small things that need adding/fixing then people can do that. If they are totally unhappy with the direction the project is taking then they can fork it, that's part of what the gpl is about.
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fromhell
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 02:05:56 pm »

they can fork it, that's part of what the gpl is about.
Indeed, though unfortunately the 3 forks of OA i've seen so far are just "OA plus Copyright Infringement Because fromhell is a Power Hungry Control Bitch".
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Proti
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 02:15:59 pm »

---PEACEFULLY CENSORED---
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 02:47:35 pm »

Quote from: schlorri
So you want to say oa is just different? So why oa has no players?

OA have more players as for example the super-pro-oa-fork Q3min.

So there is something wrong too, but its the ehm "better" (hard to say Grin) OA fork.

EDIT: Btw q3min have no players.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2010, 06:01:27 pm »

Quote
Hmm, i love this funny argument, because it sooo SUX. Maybe you didnt notice, but not everyone is skilled by using Blender, 3DMax or other modelling studios. And for your information, im not going to learn how to make new models for this game or any similar stuff. Do you know why? Cuz i have different interests and hobbies, it takes looong time to manage handle such thing as modelling.

Sure, 3D modelling is difficult to learn, but you could always pick up a pencil and sketch some concept art on a bit of paper. They teach that stuff at school, so you are already part way there. Concept art doesn't have to be amazing to convey an idea, you can even grab a bit of tracing paper and trace a picture from a magazine to get the general shape right start go from there.

Look at all the posts where people make suggestions/criticisms of the way the game looks and see what proportion actually bothered to draw what they were talking about. I'm guessing it's not many. Words are cheap.
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MIOW
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 05:49:07 am »

- We don't have a motion capture studio for player animations. I'm doing the best I can to get bones to move right. Alone.
- Sorry that half the levels aren't drenched in orange, littered with skull/baphomet clip art, and lava. Q3 is good, but there are lots of things I hate about its art design direction, 'id satanic' gets old really quick and I am glad Adrian Carmack is fired at id Software.

I always thought that OA models are top quality. I may personally like or dislike style of some models, but that's not the point.
The point is, models are too dark, and some models are darker than another. Maps also got darker after 0.7.6 release.
And there's where comparison with Q3 is(or was?) fair, because OA claimed to have Q3 gameplay unchanged. In Q3 you are supposed to see enemy just anytime when he is in your field of view, models are a lot brighter. Anyway, if there are two maps with shadows where players can hide(?), on the vast majority of maps it doesn't bring any benefit, it only causes annoyance. It's also worse for making videos.

As for the style I thought that OA should be as much different and unique as possible. I didn't see a lot of people complaining here that OA doesn't resemble Q3 style perfectly either.

As for maps quality, maps like oa_basesX, cbctf1 and oa_ctf2 would better be pulled out of the game. Not that people care about some additional megabytes to download but such maps have negative impact on game reputation.

- "fromhell doesnt care about pros" is only smoke and mirrors of illusions coming from the community's choice of stigmatic words themselves. I only make the data; the overdefensive behavior and the 'play to win' does not bring myself motivated to make artwork for the game when it's going to be dipstickped and forcemodeled to personal advantage of ego.

There definitely should be a way to prevent players from playing "to win". Like removing scoreboard or forcing r_gamma to 0. The best way "to have fun" is randomly moving mouse and pressing buttons on keyboard. C`mon.

As someone stated, even newbies play to win, they just don't have enough knowledge and experience to archive it.
I understand that if opposite team is too weak I can e.g. stop using shaft to balance it. But otherwise, there's no point. If players are learning and playing at their maximum, it creates better gaming experience, meaning more fun. Blaming them for it as absurd as blaming soccer players or any other sportsmen.
On the other hand, some players prefer not to put their time and pressure into getting better, that should be respected as well.

As for advantage given by simplified graphics that's a fiction. Experienced player can drastically outskill newbie in Quake games.
With new 0.8.5 server-side cvar disabling most hated graphics tweaks you will have enough evidence in it.

Also, people who use simplified graphics still watch demos and make movies on maximal settings.

- Vertex light is still going, it brings no technical benefit for performance gain on computers made past the year of 2000. It is a cvar built for supporting 1996-98 video chipsets with single TMUs; not Carmack's 'ideal vision of a pro gaming experience'. It is an OBSOLETE feature that should be disabled except for special cases where it will actually benefit performance (Voodoo 1/Banshee, early PowerVR cards).

actually on second thought, vertexlight should just be rewritten to translate automatically from the lightmap/lightgrid so it doesn't bring the 'no lighting' advantage anymore.

Vertex gives about 10 more fps on my nvidia card, although I can have stable 125 fps without it everywhere.
Vertex will be disabled on vast majority of online servers in 0.8.5 release, thus there's no point of arguing about it now.

not Carmack's 'ideal vision of a pro gaming experience'[/b].

A bit offtopic, but...
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1427358#pid1427358

Quote from: Carmack
Some reasonable messages have convinced me that a single immediate jump after landing may be important to gameplay. I'll experiment with it.

Strafe jumping is an exploitable bug. Just because people have practiced hard to allow themselves to take advantage of it does not justify it's existance. When I tried fixing the code so that it just didn't work, I thought it changed the normal running movement in an unfortunate way.

In the absense of powerups or level features (wind tunnels, jump pads, etc), the game characters are supposed to be badasses with big guns. Arnold Schwartzenegger and Sigourney Weaver don't get down a hallway by hopping like a bunny rabbit.

This is personal preference, but when I play online, I enjoy it more when people are running around dodging, rather than hopping.

My personal preference just counts a lot. :-)

On the other hand:

Quote from: Carmack
It's completely questionable whether you need anything more than Quake III technology to do just about anything you need to in a multiplayer game. A lot of the time, serious deathmatches turn off all the special effects and they are still having fun because their big focus is on interaction.

Quote from: Carmack
The Quake 3 engine is about as advanced as the "twitch-fps" deathmatch game requires. Because FPS are a factor in a good competitive game, while beautiful dynamic lighting and shadowing are not (in fact not even wanted by competitive players), the Quake 3 engine strikes an almost ideal balance between looks and functionality.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:00:17 am by MIOW » Logged

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Bane
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 06:57:54 am »

Since we are talking about Lizs crouch I was wonder why when pull up the Liz model in the choose your model thingy his crouch looks normal but it game it looks weird just wondering why is that ?

Also about the oabases I have found they are hard as hell if there is a great or good defense. Maybe its me but some people me and my team just cannot get past and once someone gets the rail gun it becomes almost impossible if they are really good. Although these bases have taught me how to rocket jump to certain areas to get the flag. Like oabase3 I usually go thought the one of the side windows if a person is spamming rockets like mad. Although on that map I wish I could do the double rocket jump that lets you come in thought that top window and just grab the flag and go however I have also been trying to learn how to plasma climb because I figure I can just plasma climb up there get the flag and get out.. Also if I have enough health I rocket jump up thought the window on oabase5 because I know there is always someone on the other side of that castle gate waiting with a nice rocket for me.
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Falkland
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 09:24:41 am »

not Carmack's 'ideal vision of a pro gaming experience'[/b].

A bit offtopic, but...
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=1427358#pid1427358

Quote from: Carmack
Some reasonable messages have convinced me that a single immediate jump after landing may be important to gameplay. I'll experiment with it.

Strafe jumping is an exploitable bug. Just because people have practiced hard to allow themselves to take advantage of it does not justify it's existance. When I tried fixing the code so that it just didn't work, I thought it changed the normal running movement in an unfortunate way.

In the absense of powerups or level features (wind tunnels, jump pads, etc), the game characters are supposed to be badasses with big guns. Arnold Schwartzenegger and Sigourney Weaver don't get down a hallway by hopping like a bunny rabbit.

This is personal preference, but when I play online, I enjoy it more when people are running around dodging, rather than hopping.

My personal preference just counts a lot. :-)

On the other hand:

Quote from: Carmack
It's completely questionable whether you need anything more than Quake III technology to do just about anything you need to in a multiplayer game. A lot of the time, serious deathmatches turn off all the special effects and they are still having fun because their big focus is on interaction.

Quote from: Carmack
The Quake 3 engine is about as advanced as the "twitch-fps" deathmatch game requires. Because FPS are a factor in a good competitive game, while beautiful dynamic lighting and shadowing are not (in fact not even wanted by competitive players), the Quake 3 engine strikes an almost ideal balance between looks and functionality.

sed s/Carmack/fromhell/
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MIOW
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2010, 04:41:40 am »

Also about the oabases I have found they are hard as hell if there is a great or good defense. Maybe its me but some people me and my team just cannot get past and once someone gets the rail gun it becomes almost impossible if they are really good.

On oa_bases3 you can hold defense with only machine gun and every bases map is utterly easy to defend with all those windows and only one way to flag. One of the worst map designs I've ever seen.

sed s/Carmack/fromhell/

Cheesy
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